Help with court order and unsigned document.

[Nola1988]

Hi everyone,

I had one of those unfortunate visits in April 2021. I told the TL guy that I don't have a license and that I do not require one either as I don't watch live tv. I did however say that I only use Netflix, Amazon, YouTube and watch a few Swedish television shows to which he turned around and said he's been in this job 20 years and he knows for a FACT that I need a license for Swedish television.
(TV license in Sweden was abolished 1,5 years ago if that makes any difference)
I said that these shows are not on TV in Swedish but are like a Netflix app but obvs only Scandinavian shows on a streaming site. He gave me a piece of paper which I didn't sign, cause of Covid (it says on the sheet) and he left. I then read it through and it said that I watch live television in my home and mentions Swedish TV.

My partner luckily came home just 1 second after this man caught me at the door and heard the whole conversation, for example that I never said that I watch LIVE TV.

A minute aftert TV license man left, I called TV licence agency up and told them what has just happened, and made a complaint as the man wrote a bunch of lies on the piece of paper and that I have CCTV which I can send them (footage and audio) they said not to worry and that they would do an investigation. Months went past and one week ago (august 2021) I got a Single Justice Procedure Notice in my letterbox and I am just baffled.

I haven't heard a peep from them since the day I rang them up after the man left and I made that complain and now I'm being sent this type of correspondence.

My CCTV only stores footage for 3 months, so very convenient for them to come back to me after that 3 month period.


My question is, what do I do?

Plead guilty - pay £150 and what else happens?

Not guilty - what do I say, what do I not say? Is this worth it? I don't really want to get into more debt or being fined but I also hate just "giving in"


Let me hear your opinions!

[CountryBoy]

If you're only watching on-demand Swedish programmes, which is what you seem to be saying, then you do not legally need a TV licence. That being the case you should plead not guilty. Do not be afraid of telling it how it is - you reply to the notice that "I dispute the accuracy of the statement of the TV Licensing agent. I only said I watch on-demand Swedish programmes and do not therefore legally require a TV licence. The TV Licensing agent has made a demonstrably inaccurate statement." A trial will be listed and you go and say exactly the same thing, wheeling out your witness to confirm your account. TV Licensing will probably withdraw the charge as soon as they get whiff of the fact that you are going to challenge the honesty and integrity of their goon.

Edit: I should add that the complaint you made at the time obviously supports your account. Your case will be even better if you have some sort of complaint reference number, record of the call or the name of the person you spoke to.

[Boundah]

This tale just reinforces the need to say absolutely nothing to these leeches.  They will twist your words to their own ends in the hunt for their twenty pieces of silver and you can clearly see the results here.

The more people we can get this message out to the better.

FWIW, my advice is to go to court and when you are approached in the corridor before you go in just make sure TVL know you are going to defend yourself vigorously.  Chances are they will withdraw their complaint when they see they won't get a conviction.  Even if they go ahead you have a solid case which any sensible magistrate should listen carefully to.

[Cornucopia]

... (TV license in Sweden was abolished 1,5 years ago if that makes any difference) ...

No it doesn't.  I wouldn't mention that in any communications with them, or in Court.

He gave me a piece of paper which I didn't sign...

This is the single strongest part of your case.   If you had signed, it would have made it a confession which would have been hard to challenge.   Without a signature they will now have a problem about how to present it to the Court.   They still can present it, most likely by getting the Goon to make a Witness Statement that says that you said what he wrote.   That then takes you down the route of cross-examining the Goon in court to test that statement.   They will find it hard to remember after all this time, and that alone may lead to it being withdrawn.

Months went past and one week ago (august 2021) I got a Single Justice Procedure Notice in my letterbox and I am just baffled.

What paperwork is included with the SJP Notice?   Is there a copy of the interview form, unsigned by you?  Is there a Section 9 Witness Statement?

My CCTV only stores footage for 3 months, so very convenient for them to come back to me after that 3 month period.

I wouldn't worry about that - I doubt that they would see it as conclusive.

My question is, what do I do?

Plead guilty - pay £150 and what else happens?

Have they asked for £150?   That seems odd.   Have you completed a means assessment form?  If the case has already been heard, you may need to make a Statutory Declaration to get it re-opened.

There is a further option, which is to approach them and ask about their policy of not prosecuting first-time offenders.   You'd need to buy a Licence, but could cancel it after 6 months from the original interview date.    That would be £13, so just about the cheapest way of getting rid of all of this.

It leaves a bad taste, but these cases can be hard to win - everyone seems to be against the precious principles of justice, which is a massive national shame.

[Nola1988]

Yes there is a copy of the interview form in there and yes there is also a statement of witness.

It says under Signed : Not asked due to Covid-19. Does that matter at all?

I don't want to cave in and have to pay when I know I'm right and he's taking the p*ss. M

I called TV licensing agency last week and the advisor informed me that I could pay £150 now and he'd cancel the whole court thing, or go not guilty and see what happens. I asked if one could pay in installments and he said no, it has to be the whole £150 - which is presume is the annual fee?

How easy/hard is it to win these things? Do I have to actually attend a court, physically? God, this is the reason why a lot of people just cannot be asked and give in and pay them. Even though it's not right and I should absolutely not have to go 'guilty' for something I haven't even done!

[Cornucopia]

Yes there is a copy of the interview form in there and yes there is also a statement of witness.

It says under Signed : Not asked due to Covid-19. Does that matter at all?

AFAIK, there is no general allowance for statements not being signed due to Covid, and the fact that a Witness Statement has been supplied tends to support that.

I don't want to cave in and have to pay when I know I'm right and he's taking the p*ss. M

Quite so, and no one here wants to see anyone giving TV Licensing an easy time.

I called TV licensing agency last week and the advisor informed me that I could pay £150 now and he'd cancel the whole court thing, or go not guilty and see what happens. I asked if one could pay in installments and he said no, it has to be the whole £150 - which is presume is the annual fee?

The Annual Licence Fee is £159 at present.   So, not sure why they are saying £150.   I think I'd be tempted to have them put that "offer" in writing, so that there can be no doubt about what it means.  (That would also give you the option of sending a copy to your MP suggesting that it amounts - under the circumstances - to blackmail).   It sounds as though they want to prevent you from cancelling the Licence early, and I'm not convinced that there is any legal basis by which they can do that.   (And even if they tried, I'm sure there are ruses that could be used, such as a friend cancelling their Licence, and you moving yours to their address).

How easy/hard is it to win these things? Do I have to actually attend a court, physically? God, this is the reason why a lot of people just cannot be asked and give in and pay them. Even though it's not right and I should absolutely not have to go 'guilty' for something I haven't even done!

Yes - all of that.    Reports vary - sometimes just being firm leads them to withdraw weak cases, although they often wait until the day of the hearing.   Sometimes they fight tooth and nail.   There doesn't seem to be a pattern.

Normally, you have to attend Court for the full hearing.  You write back with a Not Guilty plea, and they supply a new date that you will need to attend.   I don't know if there are Covid concessions, but you can ask the Court what options there might be.   You won't receive legal assistance unless you pay for it yourself, although the Court is "supposed" to make concessions for members of the public representing themselves.

[Terminator]

Do you have still have the video footage? If so and it has audio produce it in your defence if it says that the Swedish TV is watched like Netflix and was on-demand. Goons, more often than not, do a runner if they are filmed even on a video doorbell.
A friends had two goon visits since lockdown started and they did a runner as soon as he opened the door with the phone in his hand recording them.

[Nola1988]

Do you have still have the video footage? If so and it has audio produce it in your defence if it says that the Swedish TV is watched like Netflix and was on-demand. Goons, more often than not, do a runner if they are filmed even on a video doorbell.
A friends had two goon visits since lockdown started and they did a runner as soon as he opened the door with the phone in his hand recording them.

Unfortunately I don't, they're only stored for 3 months and they came April 21st and I got this letter August 25th - so basically exactly 3 months later. So irritating.

I know better know in terms of handling the situation if it would ever happen again, but just need to tackle this in the best possible way.

[Nola1988]

AFAIK, there is no general allowance for statements not being signed due to Covid, and the fact that a Witness Statement has been supplied tends to support that.
Quite so, and no one here wants to see anyone giving TV Licensing an easy time.
The Annual Licence Fee is £159 at present.   So, not sure why they are saying £150.   I think I'd be tempted to have them put that "offer" in writing, so that there can be no doubt about what it means.  (That would also give you the option of sending a copy to your MP suggesting that it amounts - under the circumstances - to blackmail).   It sounds as though they want to prevent you from cancelling the Licence early, and I'm not convinced that there is any legal basis by which they can do that.   (And even if they tried, I'm sure there are ruses that could be used, such as a friend cancelling their Licence, and you moving yours to their address).
Yes - all of that.    Reports vary - sometimes just being firm leads them to withdraw weak cases, although they often wait until the day of the hearing.   Sometimes they fight tooth and nail.   There doesn't seem to be a pattern.

Normally, you have to attend Court for the full hearing.  You write back with a Not Guilty plea, and they supply a new date that you will need to attend.   I don't know if there are Covid concessions, but you can ask the Court what options there might be.   You won't receive legal assistance unless you pay for it yourself, although the Court is "supposed" to make concessions for members of the public representing themselves.

Thank you very much for your inputs.

I cannot lie, this does stress me out quite a bit, yesterday I had a hard time trying to fall asleep cause as mentioned, i am so 50/50 and ideally want to fight it and win but I also feel like this is a bit of a burden to carry around for months abs not knowing what's going to eventually happen.

I'm going to call them today and ask to speak to the legal team and ask about the possibility to pay monthly, just to see what they say.

[jimspurn]

Thank you very much for your inputs.

I cannot lie, this does stress me out quite a bit, yesterday I had a hard time trying to fall asleep cause as mentioned, i am so 50/50 and ideally want to fight it and win but I also feel like this is a bit of a burden to carry around for months abs not knowing what's going to eventually happen.

I'm going to call them today and ask to speak to the legal team and ask about the possibility to pay monthly, just to see what they say.

And therein lies the dilemma for all.
Certainly, it's not an easy decision for you and I have long suspected the BBC relies on this being a 'burden' to many in order to win many cases, a pure numbers game for them, an a stressful and uncertain time for their victims.

What ever you decide, no one on here with decry you for not wanting to fight it.
But this experience, will help you in correctly dealing with these people in future.

All the best.

   

[Terminator]

If it's an APP then can you download it to your smartphone and prove that it's like Netflix to the court? What is the web URL for this site? it might help if the people posting could access it to check!

I would never phone them and ask to pay in instalments they always want the full amount. Just go to court and plead not guilty they have to prove that the APP shows live content and if they cannot access the APP then you win as they cannot provide the court that it shows live content.
I would also tell TVL that when you are found not guilty you are suing for damages for stress caused and will only accept a cash payment and all your costs.

[Cornucopia]

If it's an APP then can you download it to your smartphone and prove that it's like Netflix to the court? What is the web URL for this site? it might help if the people posting could access it to check!

I would never phone them and ask to pay in instalments they always want the full amount. Just go to court and plead not guilty they have to prove that the APP shows live content and if they cannot access the APP then you win as they cannot provide the court that it shows live content.

I suspect that the 178 form just says "Swedish TV".   And the Magistrates will just accept that without even questioning what it means in practice. 

I would also tell TVL that when you are found not guilty you are suing for damages for stress caused...

This won't work.

[Terminator]

I suspect that the 178 form just says "Swedish TV".   And the Magistrates will just accept that without even questioning what it means in practice. 
This won't work.

If the person downloads the APP on their phone and proves to the court that the only content is on-demand then TVL lose their case. Same if it is only available on-line but shows on-demand content only the URL might be available but it states that it's only available on Smart TV's. Did the BBC try to access this site to prove live content was available on a TV?

I have a saying that comes from under siege 2  Assumption is the mother of ALL f*ck-ups the court cannot just assume that the person viewed live content.

[Cornucopia]

If the person downloads the APP on their phone and proves to the court that the only content is on-demand then TVL lose their case. Same if it is only available on-line but shows on-demand content only the URL might be available but it states that it's only available on Smart TV's. Did the BBC try to access this site to prove live content was available on a TV?

You are assuming that the "App" is the only App for Swedish TV, and you are also assuming that there is no option within it (or within any other app) for accessing "live" versions of Swedish broadcast channels.  (*)

Maybe I'm wrong, but I honestly can't see UK Magistrates going to great lengths to wade through the practical/technical detail on this.   The only way, I think, to really push it forward is to say that the "real" reason why the 178 wasn't signed was because of exactly this issue (and that the Goon wouldn't accept it).

(*) Not that I accept this interpretation of the Law, but TVL now seem intent upon it.

[Terminator]

I said that these shows are not on TV in Swedish but are like a Netflix app but obvs only Scandinavian shows on a streaming site

If it's a streaming site only then pleading not guilty is the way for this person to go and if TVL try to say it shows live content then the person would be within their rights to ask them to bring up the service on either a TV or phone from the URL given to them and if no live content is available then case dismissed.
The OP could be streaming content that isn't shown live and has a Roku box for the content.